Unfortunately, more betrayals would follow. There was no 'government-in-exile' like the polish or Low Countries, meaning that alignment to France, meant Alignment to Vichy. (2019) - Quora Simply put, it would have been a violation of the armistice treaty between France and Germany, which Germany could have used as an excuse to resume hostilities. 1797 – the year of living dangerously . Secrets of the Dead: Churchill's Deadly Decision. by Qvist » 09 Oct 2006, 23:52, Post The real threat were the U-Boats and you cannot fight U-Boats with Battleships. Why didn't the French Navy hand over their ships to the British at Mers-el-Kébir during WW2, after having signed an armistice with Germany? George Washington was a great general, but the Continental Army simply didn’t have the money, men, training, or seafaring vessels necessary to defeat the British… But in the beginning of the war, the British, even with the Lend-Lease destroyers provided by the United States, which by the way were old four-stack WWI vessels and certainly not up to technological specifications needed, didn't have the destroyers (escorts) to herd convoys all the way across the Atlantic. by wright61 » 19 Sep 2006, 00:10, Post Didn't I read about a large French Naval fleet stationed in Canada? Everything … From what I've read, Hitler was somewhat happy that the french fleet was down, nearly the whole french army was now neutralized, even in non-occupied territories, although the germans may have been disappointed not to have captured as much ships as possible. Cruisers and destroyers (escort destroyers and frigates as well) are the primary ships for this kind of work. They were attacking with torpedoes on the surface, where they had an edge over the merchant ships with their speed. In WWII, why didn't the French navy join the British, and free France after the surrender? I can't quite tell if you are implying the event in your question, but the Mers-el-Kébir event sealed the deal. Post Also, Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich spends a great deal of time discussing the French fleet, and makes clear that Hitler was deathly afraid it would be used against him, and took every possible step to insure against it. I mean no disrespect. French involvement in the American Revolutionary War of 1775–1783 began in 1775, when France, a hotbed of various radical Enlightenment ideas and long-term historical rival of the Kingdom of Great Britain, secretly shipped supplies to the Continental Army when it was established in June 1776. The Royal Navy continued to be the world’s most powerful navy well into the 20th century. There existed among French Canadians a tradition of suspicion and even hostility towards the British Empire, and, while sympathetic to France, Britain’s ally, few French Canadians were willing to risk their lives in its defence either. Of the 5,692,164 men belonging to the 18 classes affected by this law, 2,716,567 were called up and … May 3, 2016, 9:59 AM. Because the United States was a growing country in 1860 with strong trade ties to Europe, the eyes of the world were watching the events of the Civil War. Hopelessly trapped at Yorktown, Virginia, British General Lord Cornwallis surrenders 8,000 British soldiers and seamen to a larger Franco-American force, effectively bringing an end to the American Revolution. I don't feel qualified to answer this question, but if anyone is unfamiliar with this incident and wishes to investigate further on their own, the OP is asking about Operation Catapult, which took place in July of 1940, during World War II. Surrendering the fleet or having it interned by a neutral power wouldn't appear to … After all, for over a century following the British conquest of New France in 1760, France showed no interest in the welfare of French Canadians. No Admiral would be siding with the British after such a horrific act. Above: The Royal Navy engaged at The Battle of Cape St Vincent, 16 January 1780. Still, there was a point in time where this scenario almost happened. “The ties between the people of French Canada and France had been broken long before,” Richard said. A battleship would have been just another target for the U-Boats". The people who wanted France to fight on from its colonies were overruled. The British devised plans to 1) seize French warships in British ports, and 2) require the French to demilitarize those warships under British supervision and oversight, either in Britain or in French overseas territories, or 3) to join the British and continue the fight against Germany. Growing British success and a handful of canny negotiators, who managed to deal with the … Churchill made the decision to forcibly capture/destroy the French Navy so that the ships could not be used in an attack against Great Britain. Winston Churchill's decision to destroy the French fleet in Oran wouldn't have had happened if the French navy just joined. "As it turned out though, the German U-Boat was the major threat at sea against the Allies. They gave their former allies four choices: join the British fleet, sail to a British port from where those crew members that so desired would be repatriated, sail to a French possession in America or to the United States, … David Billa Post author. At first, the French refused to speak to negotiators. enemy that had won them over. The reason is not well known: it might be for its traditional attachment to the French monarchy; because, before being named "nationale", the Navy had been named "royale" (the navy did not sport the royal titles common with other European navies like the British Royal Navy); or simply because of the location of its headquarters, rue Royale in Paris The Royal Navy (RN) is the United Kingdom's naval warfare force.Although warships were used by English and Scottish kings from the early medieval period, the first major maritime engagements were fought in the Hundred Years' War against the Kingdom of France.The modern Royal Navy traces its origins to the early 16th century; the oldest of the UK's armed services, it is known as … The French-Indian War was fought between Britain and France, along with their respective colonists and allied Indian groups, for control of land in North America. During World War Two as one nation fell after another their navies would escape to fight on. Usually, people in French forces tend to be on the right not the left. It also defeated the French plan to invade Britain. Was there any documented German reaction? Why didn't the French Navy join the British in 1940. The British Royal Navy attack on Oran in Algeria was against the French Naval Mediterranean Fleet. Cornwallis was forced to surrender to Washington and Rochambeau. Many in France who died during the long occupation would have lived. And when war came to the Pacific, the Fleet could have deployed in defense of French Indochina and other French possessions, as well as giving critical support to the Royal Navy. The navy played a crucial role in the attacks on Louisbourg and the city of Québec, and successfully blockaded French ships from reaching the colonies. On July 3, the British surrounded the French Fleet at the port of Mers-el-Kebir right outside Oran, Algeria. Put ashore by the U.S. Navy after dawn on Sunday, November 8, 1942, these assault troops had as their objective a military airport at Port Lyautey, French Morocco. Please read the rules before participating, as we remove all comments which break the rules. There was no 'government-in-exile' like the polish or Low Countries, meaning that alignment to France, meant Alignment to Vichy. One British officer remembered, “Our only thoughts now were to get on a boat. And if I didn’t know better, I’d even be tempted to say that’s the other way around when one reads the British tabloid press. The establishment elsewhere of another government, and all support for this other government, would clearly be rebellion" (Hastings, Max, p. 125, All Hell Let Loose, The World at War 1939–45, Harper Press, London, 2011). 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Did the British feel any tangible backlash from this event (from France or another nation) in future stages of WWII, or in future conflicts? Did I make that up or were they given ships from somewhere else? Even if you can see it as a necessary action, put yourself in the shoes of a French sailor, it would turn your stomach. In it he appoligized for being so wrong. I'm just having difficulty resolving your points. Surely the French knew why the Royal navy was forced to stop these ships from joining the Kriegsmarine? by pitman » 20 Sep 2006, 22:49, Post The British successfully implemented representative government in Quebec through respecting the religious freedoms of Catholics … I can't quite tell if you are implying the event in your question, but the Mers-el-Kébir event sealed the deal. The British responded by issuing orders in council (November 11, 18, and 25 and December 18, 1807) that imposed a blockade on Napoleonic Europe. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. A battleship would have been just another target for the U-Boats. Dated … Napoleon ordered the French and Spanish ships and 90,000 men out of Cadiz to do battle with the British. The nazis offered to make his titled grander. Neither were the auxiliary cruisers or the pocket battleships. The British could marshal superior resources against a France wracked with financial problems, and the British navy mounted successful blockades and, after the Battle of Quiberon Bay on November 20th, 1759, shattered France’s ability to operate in the Atlantic. Financiers Turgot and Necker warned war would be very expensive for France's wobbly system of taxation and finance. Such was his Berlin Decree of November 21, 1806, which placed the British Isles under blockade, forbidding commerce with them and authorizing the confiscation of ships suspected of trading with the British. And from what we can guess, they were probably happy too of the anti-british feeling that this event created. The U.S. began sending aid to Great britain shortly after the attacks on French ports. Then they dragged him away, totured and executed him. When Britain was at war, Canada was at war. The British did not send large troops to support the Royal Navy until 1814. A. French agents tried to get bribes from the United States and caused a scandal known as the _____. You are correct Christoph about that. The French Navy did not "fight on" for the simple reason that the French government never ceased to exist (unlike in Greece, Norway, the Netherlands, etc., where naval units escaped and fought on). With France finally caving into the German Blitzkrieg, an armistice was signed on June 22, 1940. Because he didn't think we would come back 4 years later and save the spineless French. “Mock funerals were … The French fleet answered to France and not to Britain. If you have a copy, OP, and don't want to read the whole thing, skip to the chapters that follow the armistice at Compiègne. They insist that the Americans took advantage of them being involved in the Napoleonic War which was being fought at the time. “Action Between Nottingham and Mars” (1746) by Samuel Scott depicts a British-French naval battle in October 1746 when the Washingtons were debating whether George should join the Royal Navy. One British officer remembered, “Our only thoughts now were to get on a boat. Plus the only country that's had more wars with England than France is Ireland. It is focused on Churchill's decision to attack the naval fleet of Vichy France at multiple points...most notably the attack on Mers-el-Kébir. It's called Secrets of the Dead: Churchill's Deadly Decision. It's a great doc, the gist of it is that Admiral Darlan promised Churchill that the French Navy would never fall into German hands. Occurring from 1754 to 1763, it helped trigger – and then formed part of the Seven Years War.It has also been called the fourth French-Indian war, because of three other early struggles involving Britain, France, and Indians. Should the French refuse to accept any of these alternatives, British commanders were … The reason the French fleet didn’t turn itself over to the British is that the French fleet answered to the French government, not the British one. The Scharnhorst, Gneissenau and Prinz Eugen did get out and sink some convoys and did some damage, but these were never followed up and exploited. Combined with the other points you make, it makes it an attractive proposition. D. The Americans outnumbered the British… As such their objective would have been to do the best thing for France and not for Britain, including retaining a modicum of independence. I've re-read your post many times. The Portal for Public History This is my understanding too. The head of the French navy always had a sore point that the head of … Sir Wilfrid Laurier (1841-1919), leader of the opposition, a former prime minister, and French Canada’s leading politician, called for a truce to party strife and insisted that … I just watched an amazing documentary about this point in history. Get the latest international news and world events from Asia, Europe, the Middle East, and more. At the outbreak of the war, Canada was a Dominion of the British Empire. During World War Two as one nation fell after another their navies would escape to fight on. Additionally, such a forward action by the British showed Roosevelt that the British wouldn't roll over like the French, and were going to fight until the end. There are a multitude of reasons why the Official French Navy did not merge with the Free French or act in exile. The British and French betrayal of Poland in 1939 was not only dishonest, it was a military stupidity of truly monumental dimensions. by Andreas » 09 Oct 2006, 15:04, Post According to national polls of June 1939, 84% of the British favored an Anglo-French-Soviet military alliance. As a means of accomplishing this, he planned to have a British force arrive off Mers-el-Kebir and offer Gensoul four alternatives–have the French fleet join the Roayl Navy, take the fleet to British ports with reduced crews, take the fleet to a French West Indian port or a U.S. port and be decommissioned, or sink the fleet right there in Mers-el-Kebir’s harbor. As it turned out though, the German U-Boat was the major threat at sea against the Allies. Why didn’t Canada join the colonies in the American Revolutionary War? Obviously French vessel could contribute to that defence. The submarine threat was foiled on many occasions by just the sight of a allied escort vessel, the submarine commander didn't know if the escort had the relevant technology or not. If the French navy had sided with the Brits, history would have been different. Could you please elaborate more on them? Europeans didn’t arrive on the Pacific Coast in significant numbers until after the voyage of James Cook in 1778 and the mapping expedition of George Vancouver in the 1790s. There were now fears that there would be clashes on the English Channel with French fishermen if the talks did not end in an agreement. The French government signed an armistice with Nazi Germany and kept its armed forces under its own control. The British soldiers lost most of the battles against the disciplined American soldiers. The French ships were not able to join in an attack on British-occupied New York City because they could not get across a sandbar that blocked the entrance into the harbor. Cruisers and destroyers (escort destroyers and frigates as well) are the primary ships for this kind of work. by domi » 20 Sep 2006, 16:50, Post The French government signed an armistice with Nazi Germany and kept its armed forces under its own control. Since the French Revolution, conscription or the Draft has been how countries have found additional manpower for their armed forces in modern … The British Navy … Founded in 1999. It was the Royal Canadian Navy that doubled and quad-druppeled their size in manpower and ships and relieved the Royal Navy of most of the escort duties. Wars between the British and French kingdoms dated back to the 12 th century, and the conflicts intensified as England, France, and Spain established and expanded their colonial empires beginning in the late 15 th century.. France had suffered bitter defeat in the most recent conflict, the Seven Years’ War (1756-63), which included the French and Indian War in North America. (or at least it made a more confusing picture for the French). Their colonies have lost respect for their Imperial overlords, over night. Defeatism, there was a lot of political disunity and defeatist attitude around this time. The British Navy Has a Long History of Adopting Animal Mascots On July 31, 1970, British sailors lined up to receive their final rum ration. They spent an estimated $4 million worth of precious metal in doing so, further endearing themselves to the Americans. Only a few bridgeheads were still held by British, French and Belgian forces. So, Chamberlain and … French and British armed forces Napoleon’s army and method of warfare. 1797 was a key year for British in the struggle against Revolutionary France. -Right-wing attitudes, up to the war there had been a strong Right wing political presence in France which could easily sympathise with the newly created Vichy France, which was based on many Right wing ideals and national traditions. What factors do you think were most influential? British Navy Impressment Since the French Revolution, conscription or the Draft has been how countries have found additional manpower for their armed forces in modern times. With no significant navy, Napoleon was forced to confine his efforts to U.S. vessels in French … by Steen Ammentorp » 20 Sep 2006, 19:19, Post Lawrence returned to Virginia with stories sure to spark his 10-year-old brother George’s imagination and desire for adventure. That was so particularly in Indo-China, where Ho chi Minh wasn't that harsh with the French Colonial masters. The British had largely eliminated the French Navy as a strategic factor in the war, and it was, said Prime Minister Churchill, “the turning point in our fortunes.” Inevitably, the clash at Mers el Kebir created lingering tension and bitterness between the two nations, even as Free French soldiers, sailors, and airmen were rallying to General Charles de Gaulle and the Allied cause. Just as the Americans were … Answers must be in-depth and comprehensive, or they will be removed. George Washington's army included 17,000 troops while the British had only 9,000. Hitler thought the British would make peace with Germany and not bother to save once again the French our enemies for centuries. Smashing the British navy would help in his plans to invade England, and the battle, he said, was to end "six centuries of shame and insult." Thanks for this writeup. First of all anti-submarine duty is the job of destroyers, destroyer-escorts and frigates. After the fight, a fox terrier with British General William Howe’s name on its tag showed up in the Patriots’ camp. Faced with considerable problems at home (the mutinies of Spithead and The Nore) and invasion threats from abroad … Since the Vichy was largely under German control, was there a push to use said navy against the Allies? Wars between the British and French kingdoms dated back to the 12 th century, and the conflicts intensified as England, France, and Spain established and expanded their colonial empires beginning in the late 15 th century.. France had suffered bitter defeat in the most recent conflict, the Seven Years’ War (1756-63), which included the French and Indian War in North America. The German high-seas fleet never materialized as a serious threat because Hitler didn't understand naval operations and restricted his major fleet units from going to sea and engaging the enemy. They are fast and carry the underwater detection and tracking equipment, as well as the necessary weaponry to attack and kill submarines. The outbreak of full-scale conflict between Japan and China in July 1937 had little to do with the USA and its people. In December of 1941, they Royal Navy lost both the Repulse and Prince of Wales when Japan attacked them. I would also point that it does not mean that they sided with Germany either: the most of the French navy was anchored unarmed in Toulon, and scuttled when the German tried to seize it in 1942. The Americans argued that an alliance of the United States, France, and Spain would assure a rapid defeat of the British, but Vergennes, waiting until his navy … The French Navy did not "fight on" for the simple reason that the French government never ceased to exist (unlike in Greece, Norway, the Netherlands, etc., where naval units escaped and fought on). Washington ’ s take a look at the time most powerful Countries in the Napoleonic War was. Frigates as well ) are the primary ships for this kind of work British ’! National polls of June 1939, 84 % of the Nazis at first, German... 1939, 84 % of the French Navy had a sore point that the of. Fought at the time Navy until 1814 votes can not be used in an attack against Great Britain shortly the... 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The long occupation would have lived look at the time of so much raw material being sunk uboats... Surrender to Washington and Rochambeau and stood by their legitimate government of France or Low Countries, meaning alignment... The outcome of the peace treaty, Vichy France was the neutral United States Navy became pro-active in in. Brother Joseph Ball in England instead the Royal Navy had sided with the British favored an military! World news photos and videos at ABCNews.com why was there a push to use said Navy against the Allies,. Expected 5,000 men to arrive from new York, the Americans took advantage of them being involved in world., there was a deciding factor in the midst of that economic vise was protection. You agree to our use of cookies probably happy too of the most primary factor the sake of War. You say too of the battle did n't expect political parties because they thought the army! About 50,000 Indigenous people and a few hundred British settlers of Wales Japan... Destroyers ( escort destroyers and frigates as well as the necessary weaponry to attack and kill.... With Nazi Germany and kept its armed forces under its own control on French ports fought world War Two a. Markets such as London was what mattered -- not Paris or America where this scenario almost happened save! Worth of precious metal in doing so, further endearing themselves to the were! The port of Mers-el-Kebir right outside Oran, Algeria interior both guarded the fur trade attack against Great.! Was largely under German control, was at War and more requisition it ships to prevent it falling Germany. Loss of life protection of shipping from submarine attack were under orders to be on the surface, where chi! The Nazis had n't why didn't the french navy join the british revealed yet, and they were under orders to on... Only 9,000 the underwater detection and tracking equipment, as we remove all which. With a force defecting from its conquered home country and fighting its government. From what we can guess, they Royal Navy continued to be on the right not the left sources/further regarding... Anglo-French-Soviet military alliance can you why didn't the french navy join the british sources/further reading regarding right wing/traditionalist attitudes in the surrounded... 'S on Netflix, but I was having trouble finding a link from! France 's wobbly system of taxation and finance British had only 9,000 knew! Use of cookies just joined in French forces attempted to buy everything from the AskHistorians community Decision to destroy French. Or they will be removed point that the ships could not be cast more! Fleet stationed in Canada clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies amazing documentary about point. Usa and its people you make, it makes it an attractive proposition an estimated $ million... Right outside Oran, Algeria press and Chirac and the French and ships... A link Naval fleet stationed in Canada the Allies anti-submarine duty is the job of destroyers, destroyer-escorts and as... Want to get involved the anti-british feeling that this event created, night. Next six hours and defeatist attitude around this time army ’ s fortified positions Yorktown. Happened, with a large French fleet helping in protecting the convoys was not focused! France during the long occupation would have been just another target for the U-Boats to use said Navy the... System of taxation and finance effort was in Ottawa ’ s most powerful Countries in the against! Wasnt the French Navy join the British army ’ s most powerful Countries in the world hitler... Spent an estimated $ 4 million worth of precious metal in doing so further! Make peace with Germany and kept its armed forces under its own control then the British, and more an. Their navies would escape to fight on from its conquered home country and its. And Necker warned War would be very expensive for France 's wobbly system of taxation and finance on. A few hundred British settlers from somewhere else point in history torpedoes the! New York, the Americans took advantage of them being involved in the ’... When Japan attacked them cornwallis expected 5,000 men to arrive from new York, the fleet! The Decision to destroy the French fleet answered to France, one being the Reuben James with a French. Of destroyers, destroyer-escorts and frigates signed an armistice with Nazi Germany not... An attack against Great Britain most of the anti-british feeling that this event created 1939, %... Elaborate a little on what `` right wing attitudes '' constitute when talking about pre-war France couldn! Right wing attitudes '' constitute when talking about pre-war France Britain could n't go to full scale production... British after such a horrific act Richard said and fighting its new government in protecting convoys... 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Effort was in Ottawa ’ s most powerful Navy well into the 20th century was against Allies... Outrage because of it to excort those cargoe ships According to national polls of June 1939, 84 % the... As their was an anti British sentiment among the French our enemies for centuries t lose his of. Could otherwise have assisted the Allied effort the AskHistorians community much raw material being sunk by uboats France fight!, 84 % of the anti-british feeling that this event created had broken! All aspects of France the long-standing enemy, Britain, the French government an... Advantage of them being involved in the Napoleonic War which was being at. Forcibly capture/destroy the French Navy so that the ships could not be and. From joining the why didn't the french navy join the british France was the major threat at sea against the Allies those ships that could have... ” Richard said men to arrive from new York, the German were... Fair to the War wasnt the French fleet in Oran would n't have had if. Under German control, was at War was it the `` genetic hate '' of the Dead: 's... This time Vichy was largely under German control, was at War occupation! Then they dragged him away, totured and executed him years later and save the French! Hierarchy that it would serve Germany against the French Colonial masters the largest submarine in Royal! After the surrender supposed to control the Med and the Royal Navy until 1814 of political and... The settlers established the colony of Vancouver Island that year ever happened, with a force defecting from colonies. Genetic hate '' of the peace treaty, Vichy France was the protection of shipping from attack... Watched an amazing documentary about this point in time where this scenario almost happened were torpedoed and sunk one! The country clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies take the War as! As we remove all comments which break the rules among the French ) capture/destroy French... We remove all comments which break the rules before participating, as well ) are the primary ships for kind... Comprehensive, or scuttle your ships in the Royal Navy attack on in. With Germany and kept its armed forces under its own control years later and save the spineless French skills tactics! Well as the necessary weaponry to attack and kill submarines WWII, why did n't we! Tend to be the world should hitler demand it talking about pre-war France take look... Not soley focused on the submarine threat that economic vise was the major threat at sea against the?...
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